I tend to get sucked in by the hype too easily so it was with little thought that I chose the Turnigy Talon Tricopter as my first Multirotor…
Love at first sight
I just loved the carbon, the sleek design, the funky arm folding mechanism, the GoPro mounting tray at the front. This was going to be my first, and most awesome multirotor. I was going to load it up with FRV gear and would soon be swooping through the trees like that Swedish chap at Flite Test/RCExplorer…
I’d done a bit of reading so I knew what I needed to get. For some of the other bits however I just went with the recommended accessories on the Hobbyking listing:
- Turnigy Talon Tricopter frame
- KK2.1 Flight Controller
- NTM Propdrive 2836 1000kv motors x3
- Turnigy Plush 25A ESC x3
- TGY-306G Ultra fast/high torque metal geared servo
- Multistar 9×6 Carbon props CW/CCW x2 pairs
- Some other stuff…
Putting the Turnigy Talon Tricopter together
Putting the thing together was actually a lot of fun! It was a bit like my old Mechano days; all nuts and bolts and slotting stuff together. Sure, some of the fits were a bit tight and it was a real fiddly job doing the spring loaded arm retaining pins, but I was enjoying myself.
The first real test came when I needed to put the supplied metal servo arm onto the servo. This is achieved by way of mounting the metal arm to the plastic servo arm by passing screws through slots in the metal and into the pushrod holes. This is where I had my first grumble:
- The metal horn is made from soft aluminum and doesn’t look like it will take much abuse.
- The slots are too narrow for the supplied screws so some fiddly drilling is required to get them in. This then makes it nearly impossible to get a 100% square fit.
Fitting the actual servo to the frame was not much better as, even though this was the recommended servo, it was impossible to get it through the hole without actually taking the bottom off the servo and reassembling it once in place!
Electronics
I mounted the electronics how I thought they should go and the KK2.1 fitted perfectly onto the frame using the supplied nylon spacers. I put the ESCs out on the arms as I had read this is a good idea for cooling airflow and also moves potential interference away from FPV gear. I even made up a nice little harness to distribute power from a single battery to all three ESCs.
The Futaba RX was mounted at the back of the frame with a funky polymorh bracket made to direct the antennae up and away from all that carbon. The FatShark TX sat nicely between the frame plates with the antennae poking up directly behind the GoPro, which sits on an anti-vibration pad made from an old mouse-mat.
The motors were a perfect fits on the snazzy looking mounting plates although it didn’t make sense that the countersunk holes appeared to be on the wrong side of the plate!
The KK2.1 is a nice looking bit of kit. I downloaded the user manual from HK and soon had it wired up and ready to go. I was still waiting on a USBasp programming card to arrive from eBay but I just had to give it a go. In fact, the first thing I did was remove all the FPV gear. This was my first time with a multirotor after all and there was a bit of an investment strapped to it!
Flying
Turns out taking some of the expensive stuff off was a good idea…
20+ years of fixed wing flying does not really prepare you for the totally alien experience that is multirotor flying. I’d put in a few settings from the internet and was flicking and spinning all over the shop. Of course, then I read the bit that said:
On a Tricopter, you might need to set the rudder in the mixer editor to -100…
That sorted out the wild spinning at least. Now I could get airborne and sort of stable but it still wasn’t cool. I had another look at the HK site and found the tuning sheet for the KK2.1; tapped in those numbers and off again. Now it was a lot more stable – up, down, round and round, oops… down a bit hard… what – why doesn’t anything work?
The KK2.1 was dead
I did some tests and discovered that a not-very-hard-landing had cracked the 5v power rail in the output pins meaning I had nothing. After a bit of head-scratching I worked out that I could restore power by moving the “charged” ESC around to motor 1 (it was on 3) and using some fine wire to restore power to the other pins. I also ditched the “naked” mounting system in favour of the nice foam box the KK2.1 was supplied in and some hot glue.
Upgrades and progress
By this time the USBasp programmer had arrived and I eventually managed to install it on my PC and flashed the KK2.1 with the latest Steveis firmware. WOW – what a difference that made! I had heard the default firmware was “troublesome” but I never believed by that much!
I was starting to have some doubts about the airframe as a whole (more on that later) but I did finally strap on the GoPro for some in-flight filming…
Problems, problems…
Unfortunately, my overall impression is that the Turnigy Talon Tricopter is not the awesome multirotor I had hoped for. With not more than a handful of flights under my belt I am finding some frustrating problems:
Those lovely carbon booms
They look great, but no matter how much threadlock you use or how tight you turn the bolts the motor mounts are twisted after every landing and need to be straightened. The carbon even appears to be cracking around the tail because of this constant abuse.
On top of this, where the tail boom mounts to the frame is not very strong at all and is constantly coming loose.
That tail servo mechanism
I’d seen comments around that the thrust bearing in the tail was useless but it seemed solid to me during the build. I’ve been forced to change my mind however as I have already bent one screw and the replacement comes loose on every single flight. On top of this the screw head is nearly impossible to reach without removing the whole thing from the boom each time.
This always results in poor flight performance as you can see the vibration in the tail during flight.
NTM Propdrive Motors
Again, further reading shows some poor reviews of these otherwise fine looking motors. I’ve had one that seemed to have a misaligned drive shaft attachment and the others seem to have a lot of slop and vibration in the cans. I’m not convinced these are really the best motors for the job.
Turnigy Plush 25A ESC
This is more of a heads-up than a complaint. I had good intentions of flashing my ESCs with the SimonK firmware but it turns out you can’t do that with these ESCs as they have the SiLabs chip on them. If you want to flash you ESC you need an ATMEL chip unit – apparently.
Conclusions
I went into this project with high hopes for the Turnigy Talon Tricopter but I have to say I am less than impressed. For an experienced multirotor pilot with the time and knowledge to engineer out the problems it looks like it should perform but it just doesn’t do it for me.
I’ve ordered a replacement tail assembly from HK but I’m not sure if I will ever use it. I might just build a different tricopter like David Windestal’s tricopter or maybe even get one imported from Fortis Airframes. To be honest I’m even returning to my original thoughts of building a deadcat quad or v-tail.
UPDATE!
Well that’s blown it! I went out for another fly whilst still writing this article and the Turnigy Talon Tricopter had one hard landing too many.
I was practicing hovering around the reserve behind the house and a sudden strong gust (yes, that bloody wind again) pushed me back into a tree. I only clipped the tail on a branch but that was enough to flip the tail and bring the drone down flat on its back from about 10 feet up. The impact had the effect of shattering the LCD screen on the KK2.1 and stripping the shaft on the tail servo. The frame survived, not so sure about the motors.
So, I’ve decided to put this one on the back burner and have now got a SK450 quad and DC conversion coming along with a new KK2.1 (in fact I already have another in reserve) and some different motors/ESCs.
Watch this space!
I have a few month long calvary with the things, but now it flies and it is awsome, so do not give up!
Turnigy plushes are really good esc-s, and can handle the copter without modification, but yea custom fw is advised, don't loose hope on this either, there is the same custom firmware for SciLabs chipped esc-s as well, it is called BlHeli, its basically the same as SimonK, maybe having even more features than the latter. Here is a good article on this:
http://flitetest.com/articles/how-to-flashing-blheli-firmware-using-arduino
There is two programs out the to actually burn the firmware, one is Owisil's or something like that, an the other is Blheli installer, I was only able to get Owisil version working, Blheli-s parameter setup can be a bit confusing first, because it will not gray out the options disabled by the ones before them. Follow the settings in the video, you should be ok. Make sure to use the correct firmware for the ESC, I read on a forum that I guy managed to burn 3 esc-s before he realized that he is uploading TurnigyAE fw onto a Plush...
About the settings, you dont need the governor (than the P and I valuues are ignored), dont use dampening, as the Plushes cannot do it, hence the dampening force setting will be ignored. Also make sure you set the throttle limits so it corresponds to your controller, for me it was 1008-2000 as I use a multiwii, and it has throttle range between 1000-2000, set the minimum a bit higher so the esc can initialize.
Also I advise to disable programming by Tx, as the control board sometime can send them into programming mode, which is bad :)
About the arms, my main problem were actually the arms, the wood flexed waay to much, and it made the copter an unruly beast and a constant source of stress, I bought nice square 10x10 carbon tubes from HK since than its nice and dosile. So if you thinking about changing the arms I would advise these carbon square tubes.
Fly Safe!
Exhodus
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In fact, as I write this message I have the thing stripped down in the garage and fixing the tail mechanism and reinforcing the tube.
I had read somewhere that the SciLabs chips in the Plush ESCs were operating at a higher resolution then ATMEL anyway so flashing them wasn't that crucial. All hearsay though (and I don't really know what I'm talking about with this stuff!).
Anyway, I've got a spare KK2.1 and all those motors and ESCs sitting around doing nothing so I might as well get it back in the air!
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About your arms flexing on a home build...
I have flown with the RCExplorer frame and wood arms for + 1 year now.
I only got flex when i exeeded the length to +50 centimeters, on 10x10 square dowls.
I did a lot of experimenting on the builing and i ended up with 12x12 mm wood and keeps to a length of 35 - 40 cm, this gives a nice stable platform, although very agile flight performance.
As to materials, Carbon is hi-tech, it is seen as the future, but it has a tendency to transport and amplifie vibrations, so when choosing this material, you need to balance the props, the spinners and the motors, and also pay great attention to isolate the controller board from the frame, since vibrations ruin any good board.
Here the wood'en arms are more forgiving. I have even good results with a direct mounted GoPro and no jello effect what so ever.
Price.
Guess what, you can probably crash 100 times and replace the arms the same amount, before you end up with thr price you pay for carbon...
Yes the Hobbyking square are made from carbon, but not the way we like to think of carbon. It is extruded carbon, very dense compacted and heavy.
Flexing is not eleminated from this, except with short arms, under 40, and it only just equals the same lenght wood arms, if bought as a good quality wood.
Weight.
Nahh, no great gain in choosing carbon for arms, since the carbon for hobby use are made of so much epoxy due to cut cost, the real benifit would come with round arms (Weight and strenght vice.) made from extreme thin pre-peg carbon. Price = half a nosecone from a F14 Tomcat....
There are lot of pro and con in tri and multirotors building.
My general advise. Go with something cheap in the beginning, something that's easy to maintain and replace, and at very low cost.
Also keep thins simple, very simple, this way you eliminate the fault and confusion factor.
When you get more experience both flying but also building, go with what you like.
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Now I've got this frame I'll keep playing with it until it is totally wrecked but I would tend to agree that a better first move would have been the cheapest materials possible. That way it wouldn't be so painful to "fly, crash, repair, repeat"!
I had a look the other day in our local hardware store (Bunnings here in Australia) and I can get 12mmx12mm pine or Tassie Oak and 3mm polycarb easily. The price of a Talon frame would by enough of these materials to build 10 new airframes.
Thinking about it, Mrs Red20 bought me the new Dremmel Scroll Saw for Christmas...
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Its David's design, 2.5 so the length of the arms were just under 370 mm.
Although what you say about the square carbon is correct, its quite heavy and quite expensive, but I'm so damn happy that my copter flies after all this time :)
I also know that wood is better, because it absorbs vibration and its dirt cheap. I managed to crack one of my shiny new carbon tubes today after hitting a tree and falling of the sky... yepp it hurts....but did I mention that it flies? :D
Anyway it was quite a learning experience for me, I will write a long article about my issues and solutions, so might save the trouble for others, but first need to get the copter PID tuned up correctly :)
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"A bad workman..." and all that... :)
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It is a good construction, and it goes together nice and simple. A perfect choise for those who ether wants some fancy carbon fibers or simply don't have the skills to build one of there own in Davids style.
But.it is also a great stepup, when you have learned the skills by flying the "Sticks of wood" and not crashes so often anymore.
Good work there mate.
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as first, I would like to compliment you on the great, big revieuw. every word is from you own experience, and I like that.
But now comes the part where I donś agree with you. I liked you revieuw because I started with exactly the same setup. only I used 1200KV NTM, and other cheap SF porps. and ofcourse the KK2.0 instead of the 2.1.
My experienceh however is completely diverent. first of all, I started out with tuning the basic settings like the tail servo to -100. (yeah, I had that problem to!) while I hold the copter firmly in my hand by the frame. Not the best save methode by some of you, I know but it worked. I found that eritating reverse seting of the tail that way, and managed to make sure all the settings were correct, not optimal but correct. after that I started doing some hovers in a big unused aircraft hanger at my work. Ideal location with enough space and NO WIND:D
Therefor I still use the same Talon frame today. Crashed it 3 times with indeed broken arms as a result. and some broken props. Today I fly the tri with an APM 2.5 for RTL and upgraded to graupner 10 inch props, 1000KV NTM motors with newly installed bearings (the original bearings sucks hard indeed!!!!) I made the save vibration dampening system from the wire like david did and the copter also lands on that.
The strange thing as you wrote is the twisting booms, I never had this happening, As of today I have around 35 flying hours logged, and I absolutely love the Talon frame!! ofcourse there's something to say for a great simple wooden frame.
The reason for this comment is that I would like to point out that user experience are pretty diverse. The funny part is that I also after 35 hours still fly with the unmodified 25A plush ECS's. The new 30A Hobbyking blue series ESC's are on the bench as of now and waiting for the arrival of the ATMEL adapter to be flashed. also I'm looking for a way to change the tail linkage . After those mod's I'm completely happy with my little Talon!
I hope especialy that your multirotor interest is not completely worn out. and I hope that you have a lot of fun with the quad! After all, that's the most important part!
Kind regards
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I think the most important thing is that my experiences so far certainly haven't put me off multirotors. In fact I've already bought a Blade Nano QX for indoors and my SK450 DeadCat Quad components should be arriving tomorrow or Friday!
The other important thing is that I don't want people coming away thinking I absolutely hate the Talon. In fact, I still think it is a very nice bit of kit. I actually spent last night in the workshop pulling it apart again, fixing everything up and getting it ready to go again. I will definitely fly it as much as I can because secretly I'm still a tricopter devotee :)
My main concern is that Red20RC is all about getting the best possible results for the smallest amount of money. I'm not sure that the amount of cash I have pumped into this project - the initial outlay for a $70 frame, the $25 tail servo that broke first big impact, the replacement tail mechanism and KK2.1 - represents a great FUN:COST ratio.
I definitely believe though that if I had served my apprenticeship on a stick and sheet tricopter and THEN bought the Talon, I'd have nothing but praise for it.
Of course, you hit the mark with the "big hangar". My biggest problem is ME! I do tend to get a bit excited and it was the flying in a small space in high wind that was my undoing...
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Interesting comment about the APM as I have one sitting on my desk at the moment that was going to go in a fixed wing drone but I might have to do some tests...
Anyway just putting the best back into the Talon so it should be ready for round two by the weekend 😯
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Turns out the new lot of KK2.1's don't share the 5v output with the M2-8 pins. I guess this was done to stop people frying their board by plugging in more than one BEC ESC. This does however mean
1, You need to make sure you plug a BEC ESC into the Motor 1 output or your KK2.1 won't even power up.
2, If you are flying a tricopter you are screwed because there isn't going to be any power out to the yaw control servo!
What you will need to do (and what I will be doing this evening) is either splice the red wire from your servo into the red wire from the Motor 1 ESC. OR... solder a jumper wire under the board from the center pin on M1 to the center pin on M4.
Grrrrrr :-(
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What they have done on this, and subsequent KK2.1 boards is create two separate power rails. M1 is connected to the main rail and powers the board. M2 thru M8 for a separate power rail.
What this means is you don't need to remove all the red wires from your BECs as the the M2/3 ESCs will provide power for the tail servo without frying the board.
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