I'm sure everyone outside the US goes through this process.
Get excited about building planes from foam board, try to find cheap foam board, give up and use the expensive stuff, wonder why your planes dont fly, howl at the moon in frustration.
Well I did anyway. We can't get Adams/Dollar Tree foamboard here and most other brands cost about $10 per board.
I made an Old Fogey from Quill FB to learn how to make and fly RC planes but it just wouldn't fly. Out of the hand and into the ground 10m away, too heavy for the 24g motor even with extreme weight saving measures. Tried a more powerful motor but it was uncontrollable.
So I set about searching for the lightest foam board at reasonable prices and here are the results.
Foamboard companies will eagerly send small sample pieces for no charge. My wife is a Medical Lab scientist with access to very accurate scales.
Here are the 95mm x 95mm samples.
Foamboards Aus (http://www.foamboards.com.au)
5mm - Thick clay paper
Weight - 0.41 g/sq inch
Cost - A$ 8.69 single or A$4.20 in box of 50 (25 double size)
Foamboards Aus (http://www.foamboards.com.au)
5mm - Acid free paper, may be difficult to remove
Weight - 0.32 g/sq inch
Cost - A$8.69 single or A$4.20 in box of 50 (25 double size)
Draftex (http://www.draftex.com.au)
5mm - Thick clay paper
Weight - 0.39 g/sq inch
A$7.70 single or A$4.00 in box of 50 (25 double size)
Quill (Officeworks)
5mm - Thick clay paper
Weight - 0.36 g/sq inch
A$10.50 single or A$9.56 in 5 pack
Depron with smooth skin top and bottom (Tates RC Geelong)
5.5mm - no paper covering
Weight - 0.19 g/sq inch
A$13.00 in 900 x 800mm sheets
Depron (http://www.tradewarehouse.com.au/more/depron-foam.html)
6mm - no paper covering or smooth skin
Weight - 0.15 g/sq inch
A$11.80 in pack of 5 (1000mm x 350mm)
A$9.15 in pack of 10
A$5.63 in pack of 40 (20 double size)
Depron from tradewarehouse does not have a smooth skin top and bottom. It is just the core depron material.
Is that good or bad for planes? Well it means the sheets are more flexible, possibly allowing for easier folding and smoother wing shapes, and it seems lighter. Accurate weight coming soon.
Adams/DollarTree
Weight - 0.19 g/sq inch
So the conclusion is.....
Depron wins hands down. Same weight as Dollar Tree and reasonable price when bought in bulk. It's lovely material to work with also. The skinned version is a bit more difficult to bend but definitely worth it for the weight saving. The unskinned version is even lighter and more flexible.
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50-70 watts/pound: 11-15 watts/100g Minimum level of power for decent performance
70-90 watts/pound; 15-20 watts/100g Trainer and slow flying scale models
90-110 watts/pound: 20-24 watts/100g sport aerobatic and fast flying scale models
110-130 watts/pound: 24-29 watts/100g Advanced aerobatic and high-speed models
130-150 watts/pound: 29-33 watts/100g Lightly loaded 3D models and ducted fans
150-200+ watts/pound: 33-44 watts/100g Unlimited performance 3D models
I'm using a 14A motor with a 3S lipo - very roughly 140w - which is easily enough to make my Old Fogey fly. Unless your weight is significantly more than that then yours should fly - it just might fly a little faster, though mine flies slow enough when I want it to. Have a look at some of my mods and flight videos; 'blustery old fogey' 'surgery on an old fogey' Unfortunately the Old Fogey has some notoriety for handling issues, so it may not have been the best plane to judge your over-weight foamboard experience on. For starters, try shifting the CG forward about 15mm. Living in Scotland where we got more than our fair share of windy weather I think some extra weight has helped with my builds. See my build articles - all these planes are built with heavier than dollar tree foamboard; 'Yes, it's a Smash Drone!' - Wing Envy! Old Fogey Biplane. - Build a Tribewt - 1927 Velie Monocoupe - "Tribewt" maiden - Baby Blender monoplane hybrid.
You can judge how they do from the videos. If you can get it cheaper than the depron, I wouldn't give up on your foamboard quite yet. Cheers, alibopo.
PS - I think your Old Fogey is super cool with the hole pattern wings. :)
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Regarding the Smash Drone - that's a design by Cstence with build articles on this website. Mine's a modified version. Also I did get my Old Fogey flying with the original 8-9 Amp motor, but I needed a pile of coins on the noise to eliminate that terrible rolling effect some of us have been getting with the build. Even with the added ballast it still flew, but looping was never easy and needed an initial dive to get the speed up first. It's starting to make sense now I see how much heavier my (our) foamboard is. However, I also built the nutball and FT Flyer in our heavier board and they both fly just fine. We'll lose out slightly in terms of flight times and very slow speed performance but that's just the penalty of building heavier planes I suppose.
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Works fine though the only colour it comes in is black however they do sell some smaller sheets in nice bright colours.
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The Depron from TW is very good but brittle in a crash (as is all depron). The foamboard I haven't built with yet but both feel light enough to get a result. The Quill definitely has thicker clay paper. The Riot is thinner paper and is also cheaper ($9.99 for 800mmx500mm and $14.99 for 1000mmx800mm) so probably the favourite.
Out of interest, did you cut the lightening holes before or after the maiden of the Old Fogey?
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Good work with the foamboard purchases.
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Well, I have just finished putting together a Bloody Wonder using the Quill foamboard. Nice stuff to work with compared to Depron as it is a lot less brittle. I have to say though that the finished airframe (foam only, no hardware) has come out at 280g (according to the wife's kitchen scales) and it does feel pretty heavy.
I'll put a big motor in it and see what happens but I think it is going to be "go fast or go home" time!
I reckon the Riot Art & Craft stuff will be better as the paper seems a lot thinner.
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I was actually pretty amazed as it felt way to heavy but it will even do the vertical take-off thing from standing on the ground.
I actually wrote an article with a little video of it flying but that has been "Pending Approval" for over a week now so no idea when or if it will see the light of day.
I went on to build a Versa Wing (slope version) with the Riot board and it was definitely lighter and also flies well.
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Articles seem to take 2 to 3 weeks to go live at the moment, my Synapse wing slope soaring article must be close.
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Made 3 planes from it already! little on the expensive side but so is everything here :)
Also found smaller sheets in KMart for $5
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https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zyWPRVXERVU/UlOxfJDMvkI/AAAAAAAACCo/QPbBd4jUfrk/w1358-h768-no/IMAG0401.jpg
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Currently building an 80% size spitfire with eckersleys foam so will see how that goes
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I'll get a sheet next time I'm in the city.
http://riotstores.com.au/art-studio-foam-board-594x841x5mm-a1-white.html
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http://www.cavalierart.com.au/catalog/boards-and-cards/foam-core/foam-core-board-white
I'd be interested to know how it compares for weight with the other products available in Australia. I get painting supplies from them and have always had great service from them. Has anyone tried their board?
Lincoln
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X-Press IT White A3 71g or 0.37g/sq inch
X-Press IT Black A3 62g or 0.32g/sq inch
Cavalier Black 1016 x 813mm 407g or 0.32g/sq inch
It would seem that the black board does not weigh as much as the white. The white clay board has one side which is smoother than the other whereas the with the black it would seem the same on both sides. I wonder if this accounts for the extra weight in the white board, more clay for a smoother surface. Unfortunately the Cavalier price on the black is almost twice the price of the white. :) I'm thinking it may be worth giving the white a go still as Cavalier's price is pretty good. Powered up according to Alibopo's comments above it may still do the job. I'm keen to give it a go.
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For those interested in Corflute, I bought the Bunnings Blasck 2.5mm corflute for $11.90 for a 1220x2440 sheet. The weight is 405 grams / sq meter which is bout 0.26g/sq inch. I am going to build a flying wing with it. I will post the progress if it's positive. Thanks for the hard work!
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I had assumed firstly all FoamBoard was the same and secondly that it was superior to Depron. I've got a garage full of Depron and was hunting around for FoamBoard to build some FT plans!
I guess I can go print out some plans now...
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What I can say is that the Depron seemed to be of good quality and has stood up well to my building and flying.
I have their 2, 3 and 5mm in White and 3 and 5mm in Grey. The white is a little stiffer and seems to be better for wings etc. The white is perfectly smooth on both sides but the grey is a little rougher to the touch (although still quite smooth). Both have sanded and filled well on the bigger project I have used it them for.
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If you're prepared to fork out $200 or so for a box of 20 double size then it works out to $5.63 per standard sized board. No contetst.
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http://www.eckersleys.com.au/products/white-core-foamboard-5mm
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Just started a Versa hoping for better results but this makes me unhopeful... Might have to look at that stuff you mention Ijeary
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Even just weighing it in my hand there is no way I would use it for a plane - far too heavy. To be honest I would think a sheet of 6mm balsa or Corflute plastic wouldn't weigh much more.
I did however, just get 10 sheets of 6mm Depron delivered in about 24 hours from Tradewarehouse. Works out about $ 9.20 a sheet (1000x350) with the shipping added on. I'll let you know how it builds...
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Since this article was written I have been using the foam board from www.foamboards.com.au. It is slightly heavier than Flite Test foam but the cost is reasonable if you bulk buy and you can build using the same techniques as FT.
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Had not considered there may be a weight issue. Just cut out a 1" sq piece and weight it on my electronic scales. With paper on it weighed in at 0.28g/sq" , paper off it weighs in at 0.14g/sq". That's half the weight!
As a comparison I cut out a piece of 6mm grey depron from a wreck that I have and it weighed in at .11g/sq".
I think the foam board I have is the acid free variety, but I will ask the nice fella at the framing shop what species the foam board is when I go back for more sheets to be certain. Paper didn't want to peel off so I soaked it in warm water for a minute and it rubbed completely off fairly easily. Foam board was just over 5mm according to my digital calipers and right on 5mm with the paper removed.
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I'll add my 5 cents worth. Try:
http://www.micronwings.com/index.shtml
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Essentially "a 20 sheet box of Readiboard will total about $75 usd delivered, working out to about $3.75/sheet usd to your door"
if there are any Brisbane folk here who want to go halves or something, I'd be interested.
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The A0 sheet weighs in at 410g. That works out at approximately 0.26g/sq inch - to compare it to the samples in the OP. The paper on the outside is reasonably stiff but not as thick as Foamcore. I'll give it a try in the next few weeks.
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$12.50 for an a0 sheet but you get 2 ft deltas out of a sheet at 104% and have enough for power pods to fit. cheaper than eckersleys and officeworks but needs a sharper blade to work cleanly.
just a little note.
the adams board measured in at 4.8mm, quill at 5.3mm and fix a frame 5.2mm
soooooo, when you want to scratch build remember that generally australian stuff is almost 10% thicker (mostly the paper) even though they are all 5mm. the quill and art board paper is a bit thicker as well and makes bends less sharp too (in my brief experience).
I did some test prints today. ft delta and power pod
104% does well for 5mm australian foam (things fit tightly)
66% for 3mm foam (which is 3.2mm).
3mm corflute is around 3.2mm as well.
enjoy
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------------------
Kapa-line 5mm - (1sq inch 0.41g) - 6.4x6.4cm 40.96 cm2 - 2.65g
1 paper layer less on one side - (1sq inch 0.38g) (easy to peel) - leaving matte (hairy?) nonslippery paper on foam
2.45g
1 paper layer less on both sides - (1sq inch 0.35g) -(easy to peel) - leaving matte (hairy?) nonslippery paper on foam
2.25g
1 side completely paperless - (1sq inch 0.23g) - easy to peel - panel very flexible after this
1.50g
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Artfoam 5mm - (1sq inch 0.37g) - 6.4x6.4cm - 40.96 cm2 - 2.35g
paper teared partially off one side - very hard to remove, forget it.
1.95g (1sq inch 0.30g)
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1 square inch is 6.45cm2
40.96 / 6.45 = 6.35
So we divide all results by 6.35 to get 1sq inch gram value.
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Dollar tree is 0.19g per 1sq inch.
Information on the net also says that foam-x (Kapa) also has a weight of 0.37g per sq/inch. Maybe it has easyer to peel paper, will try in the future
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I've just picked up some foam board from Daiso. It looks like they have both the uncoated stuff (which is labeled as polystyrene), and the paper coated 5mm board. they sell sheets in 400x450mm. I'm going to use it for a project so I will post updates then but i seems pretty decent and pretty light.
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woud it be good to thin some pvc glue really thin and add thin kraft paper like in the waterproofing episode of flite test
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuqpSlXtHoI
You just have to get some foam boxes from chemists, skip-bins, etc
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I am also considering a carton of the real stuff from flite test.
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Kmart 5mm Foamboard 640x510mm = 114g $5
That’s 0.23g/inch sq. Which is only 20% heavier than Adams/Dollar Tree (at 0.19g/inch sq)
I found it easy to follow all the instructions with this foam and it glides pretty well! I’d call it a winner.
My 4yr old daughter helped me decorate:
https://ibb.co/fdZmBp
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I have also been looking for affordable options (in country Qld), and have been experimenting with getting the paper off the kind of foam board used at the local framing business. They buy A1 sized paper covered board by the box, and are happy to sell a few sheets when they have enough on hand. About $10 per.
The adhesive is weird - sometimes the paper just falls off, if the board is older and has been sitting out on a shelf (new, it is very hard to remove).
I have tried hot and cold water (both work with lots of rubbing to "roll" the wet paper off), heat (softens the adhesive, and the paper can be stripped off - tends to leave a sticky surface, and hard to do large areas, can melt foam easily).
Then tried a range of solvents, many didn't work at all.
PVC pipe/conduit primer works well, but does dissolve the foam if there is exposed foam. Wet a small rag with the primer, rub over the paper until it is damp with primer, and the paper peals off fairly easily. Doesn't damage the foam if there is no direct contact. The organic compounds in the primer make it very malodorous and you should wear gloves.
The best answer I have found for this type of "art" foamboard is a spray can of Bendix Brake Cleaner (https://www.bendix.com.au/product-range/brake-parts-cleaner-degreaser). I would assume other brands with a similar mixture of solvents would also work - this one was best only because it was on special at the local hardware. At a guess, it would be the light naptha in the cleaner that is effective (I tried both acetone and isopropyl alcohol previously without effect).
Wet the paper all over one side, evenly, with the spray (avoid the fumes!) and let it soak in for a couple of minutes. The paper should then peel off fairly easily, taking the glue with it. I consistently end up with sticky paper and smooth foam about 5mm thick and quite light.
The foam can then be taped (as per Andrew's and Expt Airlines' methods) or laminated with suitable film. It then folds into tubes or armin/FT wings quite well. (I don't have a properly flying model with it yet, still waiting on parts like a motor from Banggoood, but the foam parts I do have assembled glide gracefully to the ground rather than exploring for worms like my first attempts with heavier materials.)
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They are 0.24g/in so not too bad. No brand, generic made in china.
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Regards James.
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Consider this - a 50 sheet pack of flitetest water resistant foam board is USD90. Shipping by post to Sydney is USD86. USD176 is about $250.
The KMart boards are a little smaller (510x640 vs 508x764) and at $5 per board 50 of these are [drum roll] $250!
We know the FliteTest sheets work and so I intend to get me some of that good stuff. It might take a while to go through 50 sheets, but I'd be happy to share the shipment with anyone that's interested in picking up some sheets from the Sydney Hills district.
Just my 2c.
Cheers,
Robert
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I'll comment on its quality once it's in.
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I am on the Northern Beaches so would be more than prepared to purchase some of your sheets. :)
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How did you go with that order?
I'd be interested to pick up a dozen or so from Sydney if you have any left.
Regards,
Roman
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https://www.teachersuperstore.com.au/foam-core-board-5mm-white-a2
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Being an aussie looking for foam board sent me here. An awesome old page.
Went into my local art supply store looking for foamboard. Looked half decent, Grabbed an offcut from them to play with.
95cmx95cm was 4g, and 100x100 was 4.5g which ends up about 0.29g per square inch from what I worked out, 1"sq was too light to measure.
Also had a play peeling the paper off, which worked flawlessly
score and peel worked 1st go no mess to clean, and bevel worked fine as well.
It looks like a single foam core, unlike other Australian stuff I read is 2 layers.
The store was Levers Art Supplies in Wollongong
The boards were unbranded, and at a guess A1 size or larger selling for $10 a sheet.
Will have to go in and buy a full sheet and see if I can get a brand name from them.
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Officeworks Larson A1
$9.54
206 g per sheet
0.266 g/in2
Or 412 g/m2 (A1 is 0.5 m2)
Spotlight Crafter's Choice A1
$17 (on special for $11.90)
215 g per sheet
0.2776 g/in2
430 g/m2
I managed to build the tiny trainer entire glider configuration from a single sheet of the spotlight board, and it came out at 198g with control rods but no electronics. I widened the nose by 4mm to make sure it fit with the slightly thicker 5mm board vs the 3/16in of the flitetest/Adam's board, as I was finding I needed to remove more than the plans suggested to get the B folds to work. I might have got away with 2mm but it is a reasonable fit as is.
I needed to use a wet rag to get the paper off the nose which worked nicely, peeling was no good.
So I was pleasantly surprised that these 2 are closer in density to the Adam's than the other ones mentioned here.
The glider chuck glides ok with 2 X 550 2s lipos I had lying around as far noseward as I could get them. Although balance was still slightly tailward of the GC marks.
I'll try the Officeworks Larson board for the power pod/nose and sport wing next, it looks to be pretty similar to the spotlight stuff.
Note: This is my first scratch build and will be my first attempt at flying an RC plane, once my electronics arrive.
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I have some of the spotlight board. Weight is good however the paper removal is problematic and tedious
I have some genuine ready board and paper removal is almost too easy
Cheers Jeff Sunny Qld
Ps just ordered a sample pack from Foamboard’s qld and will see how this handles paper removal
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